All the excitement that the world has been feeling on Obama's inauguration day has got me thinking. I have a question for you. Now, it's not meant to be making clever comparisons, or drawing parallels, or grinding an axe or anything like that, so please don't get all upset with me. It's just something I've been pondering, and I would be interested to know what you all think, on both sides of the Atlantic.
When Margaret Thatcher became the first woman Prime Minister in the UK, there was a sense of excitement, surprise, achievement, history (I don't really remember, but I think there was, although nothing compared to yesterday of course). Women had had the vote only since 1928, fifty years before. My question is this. Did Margaret Thatcher's appointment change life for British women? Do we see ourselves differently? Do we have different ambitions? What about for British men? What about people outside Britain? Has it, three decades down the line, made a difference? Ah, that's more than one question. Alright. Just answer the last one.
My ponderings were extended by this post, on the blog She's not from Yorkshire, which is written by 3 American women living in Yorkshire. I love reading their experiences - the mirror of mine in some ways. I was intrigued to read what they say about feminism in Britain, backed up by other American commenters. I can't decide whether I agree with them or not. What do you all think? (OK then, 2 questions, but you can just stick to the first if you like.)
I've been thinking about this a lot, and I guess I'd suggest that feminism is in a sorry state in both countries--Obama noted that his grandfather had restrictions in society because of being black; I am younger than Obama and my grandmothers could vote but we still are far from a woman president. Maggie is seen in the same negative light as was often reflected on Hillary during the campaign. On a day to day basis I do feel more conspicuously female in Britain than I did in the US, and I do attribute this to the less prominent feminist movement here. Two females in positions of power in my workplace have told me to keep my head down until I was more senior rather than raise feminist issues in my current (British) workplace. But I'd say we still have a hella lotta work to do on both sides of the pond.
ReplyDeleteI agree with NFAH. Maggie Thatcher almost didn't seem "female" to young women in those days. We almost saw her as an exception, and I can't explain why. Having gone through this recent US thing, there's no doubt that Hillary was grilled on far more things to do with Bill than a male candidate would have been about a female spouse. And much as I despised what Sarah Palin represented, I didn't hear anyone ask if Obama had had his lips tatooed a certain colour! All we heard about was what Michelle was wearing.
ReplyDeleteSo no. women still have a long way to go.
Whenever I am asked what I think of slavery (as it's sometimes presented as the fault of the English for bringing them over here) I say that it will be great whe it's ended (referring to gender slavery all over the world) and many people don't get it.
I'm not sure Thatcher actually advanced the cause of feminism over here. But then maybe she had to act like one of the boys in order to be accepted at that time. (I don't know if anyone saw the BBC dramatisation of her early years in politics recently, called The Long Walk to Finchley - very interesting stuff).
ReplyDeleteI think what we need as a role model is someone who is both a woman, and inspirational- much as Obama is an inspirational person no matter what his skin colour.
Iota, you've got me pondering too.
ReplyDeleteIn New Zealand women have had the vote since 1893. I applied for and got a mortgage in 1990. Later that year I was astonded to learn that many single women found it difficult to get a mortgage. I was and still am single and it never occurred to me back then that I could have difficulty with this.
My mother brought me up to be comfortable with and used to my own company "because when my husband was at work and children at school I would often be on my own". I've now lived alone for 19 years.
While working in South London in 1987 I was again astounded that a young woman at the company had it written in her employment contract that she wasn't permitted to wear trousers to the office.
Gosh - I think women workers in NZ would have rioted with such a condition. We did wear a lot of skirts and dresses in 1987. These days we're in trousers most of the year,
There was an uproar in the UK press when our then female PM wore trousers to a state banquet here with The Queen.
Enough rambling from me - I guess it is all relative to where you live and its history. The female european settlers here had to work alongside their menfolk just to survive. Perhaps our current position is also because of our relatively short "western" history, and that nearly all migrants were treated equally.
(I say nearly all because there were appalling racist laws against the Chinese, and dreadful treatment of the indiginous Maori)
LOL - word verification is "swormenv" - close
Very interesting and provocative question. I definitely felt when I moved to England it was a step backwards on the feminist front although that may have more to do with having moved from very progressives cities i.e. Washington,DC and New York to rural-ish England.
ReplyDeleteIt always seemed to me that Margaret Thatcher exempted herself from her "female" association. In other words, she's never been one of the "sisters" in the way that Hillary has unabashedly been.
There has been a weeklong discussion of feminism in Britain on Radio 4 this week if you get a chance to listen again!
As a child of Thatcher (I think I was about 11 when she became Prime Minister and about 19/20 when she left office) I didn't consider her a 'female' Prime Minister; she was a PM who happened to be woman. For me and my friends it was people like Anita Roddick (Body Shop) who showed us what was possible in a man's world.
ReplyDeleteGOod point working mum. One thing I have to say was that although it looked like women had a better time of it in the corporate world over here (USA), I was actually appalled at how much lip service this was. When I first moved here I found corporate men barely had time for the women among them and it was still very much a man's world. The women that did get ahead always delayed motherhood until they were in their late 30's and 40's because they knew they would never make partner as a working mother.
ReplyDeleteAs another child of the Thatcher years, I have to agree that I never really saw her as a female prime minister, but as a horrible person who happened to be a woman. Her policies certainly did little to further the rights of women.
ReplyDeleteI am often surprised at the lack of feminism here, too. I am married, but I kept my maiden name - I never seriously contemplated giving it up, because I feel qutie strongly defined by my name. I use Ms and have done so ever since I was a teenager. The idea that I should be defined by my marital status, but Joe Bloggs wouldn't be was just ridiculous. Yet I get post addressed to Mrs Maiden Name, M-S Maiden Name, Miss Maiden Name and Mrs Married Name.
My husband and I (obviously my blend of feminism didn't prevent me from getting married) try hard to provide good role models for our daughter - both in showing her how women can be successful and work and men can scrub the floor and the loo. She has dolls and cooking toys, she also has footballs and building toys and many non-gendered items.
I have friends who feel the same way and I also have friends who were very happy to take their husband's name and love calling themselves Mrs Married Name.
Interestingly, my daughter thinks we all have the two names (technically my surname is one of her middle names, not double-barrelled), but she uses them both together for all three of us, and sometimes for her grandparents, too. I like that. Hubby has taken on my name a bit and I've taken on his a bit. Much nicer. If only there was a masculine word for Mrs and I'd be happy.
(I know there's much more to it than that, but that's just one example.)
This is fascinating - not only the question, but the comments as well.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm sorry that your neck of the woods didn't get the big surge of excitement over the inauguration that some areas did. It really was kind of the icing on the cake.
Where to begin?! Am coming back over the weekend to comment properly, you lucky devil. RR
ReplyDeleteThose are really interesting questions Iota.
ReplyDeleteI would say, having also been one of Thatcher's children, that like a lot of the other commenters I didn't think of her as a woman. Sure, I knew she had children, so probably had the equipment, but her and Dennis in bed? Absolutely unthinkable...
Having said that, I think the fact that she was elected at all must say something positive about the state of feminism in the UK. My experience, growing up, was that my gender made no difference to my opportunities; it really was all about hard work (which, whatever else you think about Maggie, she certainly delivered on). If you put in the hours and had the aptitude, it made no difference if you wore a skirt or trousers. Of course, we've all come across individuals who think differently, and perhaps I've just been lucky in my employers (when I had them), but I really don't think about using the word 'feminism' because I don't feel I have the need to.
But then, perhaps I've just had a fortunate life.
As for it's being better or worse in the US, I can't answer that, never having lived or worked there. I do know though that a lot of my ex-colleagues from the States who came over on secondment found working in a UK company liberating because the banter between male and female colleagues was a lot more laid-back than they found it back home. And no - they weren't all men.
I think some of the problem is that British women are quieter than Americans, who come across as loud and strident. Just because we aren't aggressive about our feminism, it doesn't mean it isn't there, we just dont have to shout and scream about it. Before deciding to leave work to bring up my family of three, I was media director of an ad agency. Being a woman, and a woman from a working class background, was never a disadvantage, and I personally was very proud of Maggie Thatcher's achievement in becoming Prime Minister, and of Britain in electing her. May I also point out that Britains first non white MP was Dadabhai Naoroji, elected to the House of Commons as liberal MP for Finsbury Central in London in 1892, when the USA would only have allowed him into Congress to scrub toilets. We British should be very proud of our genuinely progressive and enlightened country, and stop apologising for it! Incidentally, I took my full legal entitlement of 26 weeks maternal leave for each of my children. Are all women entitled to that in the USA?
ReplyDeleteObama celebrates the strength of his identity; Mrs T simply ignored hers and so her being a woman was incidental in many ways. In her time the UK had a female head of state and a female head of government; can anyone argue that the cause of feminism was advanced by this?
ReplyDeleteWhat a great discussion.
ReplyDeleteI agree with many of the correspondents, Thatcher was a good politician (whether or not one agreed with her) who happended to be a woman. Obama is a great politician and orator who happens to be black. I do think that Obama will have more of an impact on racial equality than Thatcher did for women as he seems to be embraced by the African-American community as a whole.
I don't feel that there are any aspects of my life which have been restricted because of my gender. I think if you work hard and have the right attitude, you can be successful in any field. I am disappointed that society does not do enough to support mums as a whole, whether they decide to continue with a career or stay at home - and I don't believe that this will ever change.
I started my career in the US and ended it in the UK (IT marketing) so had a good amount of experience on both sides of the pond.
ReplyDeleteThere really isn't that much difference, though slightly in the US favour.
The reason is this: in the US men are scared they will be sued if they are sexist, in the UK they are openly sexist. Of course there are varying degrees.
I tend to prefer the latter, at least you know where you stand.
I've just posted on this. "gladtobealonder" kind of set me off!
ReplyDeleteI agree with Gladtobealondoner. Mrs Thatcher achievement spoke for itself in terms of feminism - I remember that at school we girls were constantly told 'See, if Mrs Thatcher can do it, so can you'. She was such an inspiration. I also think, as someone who has worked in both countries, that not only is the british workplace less sexist, it is also more fun! American women checked in their sense of humour at the door, and the give and take, joshing and sheer camaraderie of the UK companies were sadly missing. Having children, I also found the US very child unfriendly for working mothers - no maternal leave, no compassionate leave, and only 2 weeks annual holiday compared to the 4 weeks in the UK.
ReplyDeleteAs I read the last paragraph I realise why Gladtobealondoner thinks US feminists sound strident - they need to be!
Thought I would through this into the mix http://tinyurl.com/baonc8
ReplyDeleteI wrote in my diary at on the day simply: Mrs Thacher became Prime Minister today - our first woman prime minister. I was 12.
ReplyDeleteThirty years on and I feel that sometimes I am forced to be unexpecetedly feminist. Back then I was just a person neither male nor female what I was was unimportant compared to what I did. Now I feel labelled and what I am is the first consideration.
I conciously try not to make that assumption with people I meet. perhaps that's why I like the blogosphere so much!
What a fascinating debate, I'm so glad I stumbled across it! I had my first baby in GB and my second in Florida ( I was a 'trailing spouse', hideous phrase, and my husband had been seconded to his companies US branch). I have to admit that being a mum is much tougher in the States. My first surprise was that my employer didnt allow me time off for antenatal appointments, which was automatic in the UK, and that I had to pay for medical treatment and prescriptions, which were free to pregnant mums in Britain. Luckily hubbies company picked up the bill, but I was still surprised! Then, John was told he had no entitlement to 2 weeks paternity leave when the baby was born, and that neither of us could access special parental leave in case of emergencies. I was back at work 2 weeks after the birth, feeling very pissed-off, as I had taken 12 months off (some paid, some unpaid, all statutory) after my first childs birth. We complain a lot in Britain about how hard it is to be a working mum, and I think there is real room for improvement,but compared to the US, we have it made.
ReplyDeleteNFAH commented that she was told to keep quiet and not raise feminist issues in her british workplace. I'd be interested to know what the issues were, as it seems to me that British workers are generally very well protected, legally, against any infringement of their rights. Sometimes, cultural differences are not understood by americans in britain (and vice versa, I'm sure).
Ps I voted for Thatcher once and against her once, but never doubted that her election as PM was a great thing for women everywhere. I was never a Hillary Clinton fan - whats so feminist about allowing your husband to humiliate you in front of the whole world? I'd have admired her more if she had packed her bags, walked out of the White House, and got her senate seat off her own bat, instead of as a reward for not rocking the boat about Bill Clinton's disgusting behaviour.